Politics – The former head of the Democratic National Committee said Thursday it was doubtful DNC Chairman Howard Dean would be able to get approval for a plan for do-over presidential nomination contests in Florida and Michigan.
The rules were set by the Democratic Party and now that some of them recognize that they have stepped on themselves, it is their problem to sort out (and they have to pay for everything it will take to do it). It is time (unlike most political actions) to accept the consequences of their own actions and not put it on the backs of the middle class.
When the Democratic party ruled to disallow the seating of delegates from Michigan and Florida, I had written in another thread at that time that the Democrats had once again bungled their presidential campaign process which might lead to snatching defeat from what should have been sure victory. They have a potential mess in their hands right now because their leadership simply could not look ahead at possible consequences of their actions. The Democrats always seem to find a way to mess up their election chances. The bickering and in-fighting that should ensue from whatever action they take on this matter will not help their cause very much.
A do-over, how quaint. First, Howlin Howie said, "You cannot decide when to hold your primary. Only I can do that." Now he wants a do-over. How does that look to the rest of the country? Like Democrats have a screw loose. The primaries are over. Either seat their delegates, or disenfranchise 1,400,000 voters that will turn on the party in November.
The real problem with just seating the delegates - Obama was not even on the ballot in Michigan
No matter what decision is made about FL and Michigan, one campaign will be unhappy
Pbama could have been on the Michigan ballot. He took his name off.
As did every other candidate except Clinton because it was a party primary and the party ruled it was invalid on that early date.
Bottom line is Clinton should not be rewarded for supporting the violation of party rules that all other candidates respected.
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A do over? You have to be kidding me. What about those that voted and wouldn't be able to do so again, do their votes now not count? What about those that didn't think the first round was worthy of voting on but decide now to do so because of the history of it all and the 'power' welded in said vote?
Look either do what you said and not use the delegates and take the high ground or take it to the mud pits and get dirty and steal the election and prove that you will do ANYTHING to get what you want. But a do over? OMG this isn't an elementary school parlor game.
If it is decided to be done, I want the Hillary machine to pay the costs for the do overs.
Nope. Florida and Michigan bear the cost. They were told what would happen and went ahead anyway. Rules are rules and this is just plain stupid. Both states are responsible for this and should pay for their own mistakes. Like forest says, "stupid is what stupid does."
Amazing how Florida just can't seem to get out of the pig sty.
Well I probably agree with you that Michigan should bear the cost since their democratic party tried to jump to the head of the line even though they knew it was against the rules.
Florida is a different matter entirely. The primary date was set by the Governor who is a repbulican and a possible VP nominee. Since the state via the Governor set the date I don't think necessarily it is fair to saddle the revote cost on the democratic party. Mostly it should reside with the state that set the date even knowing it could disenfranchise many of its voters.
As you say Florida is finding it hard to get out of the mud of the pig sty.
The florida date for the dem primary was set by the republican legislature, just to marginalize black voters, they sponsored, and passed the bill, case closed.
Saying that they wouldn't accept the delegates was "illegal" to begin with. They should just accept the results from florida, as they will, and were planning to.
Michigan? A do over? Why bother? The only candidate that had a name on the ballot was Clinton. People just ASSUMED that Obama wasn't even on the ballot. Sorry for all the Obama fans, myself included, but it's too late for that.
Nobody let Florida vote over in 2000. We don't need it now. Let the people of florida, including the swing votes and independents look at the republicans, and realize what they'll try to do in the future. They'll ALL vote against the republicans in the presidential election.
While it is true that the legislature, which has a Republican majority, set the date for both Republican and Democratic primaries to be held, it is also true that the Democrats in the legislature voted nearly unanimously for that date. Pretending that it was something that the Republicans imposed upon the poor, innocent Democrats (for whatever reason) is exactly the sort of dishonest misrepresentation we have come to expect from you, earthlingerer.
The only reason that this is an issue now is because Senator Clinton NEEDS those delegates--it has nothing to do with race.
In Michigan, the names of Clinton and Kucinich were on the ballot. All other candidates withdrew their names, by mutual agreement, because the National Democratic Party suggested it. Try to get it right, will you?
http://doubledemon.newsvine.com/_news/2008/03/0...
FTA
"Only 3 legislators voted against it. There are many more than 3 Democrats in the Florida Legislature. Today there are 14 Democratic State Senators and 42 Democratic State Representatives. Ever single State Rep voted for the measure and only 2 State Senators voted against it.
So what is going on here?
Democrats voted for this measure, they knew the Democratic Party would punish the state for choosing this route, yet they voted anyway, perhaps playing a game of Chicken with the National Committee."
Questions
Were the rules in place BEFORE the primaries started?
Were the rules AGREED to BEFORE the primaries stated?
Who decided that the results of the Florida primary would not count,
Florida or the DNC?
Who decided that the results of the Michigan primary would not count,
Michigan or the DNC?
Who is crying foul? The DNC
"Then in May 2007 it voted 118-0 on the final draft. That vote included a great number of Democrats. The Florida Senate voted 37-2 in favor of the measure and the Governor signed it, indeed he lobbied for the measure."
For those who are "mathematically challenged" this "IS" a Super Majority, Veto proof . In other words the EVIL REPUG GOV Charlie Crist couldn't have vetoed it even if he wanted too. And it would have been political suicide to try.
Earthlingerer, the Dems are victims of their self's here, but please keep whining so the Reps can keep pointing this out.
Total lie. The Dem's could have chosen their own caucuses. But didn't.
"marginalize black voters"
HOW does changing the primary date "marginalize black voters"? You just spew lies.
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/13/State/Florida...
Sorry about the neg it was meant for the post for the post below yours
The States aren't responsible the DEMOCRATIC party is, They voted for the measures IN both states, It should come out of the Democratic budgets in those 2 states somehow. Taxpayers should NOT bear the weight of this! but there should be a do over if the DNC even expects ANY kind of saving of FACE over this DEBACLE! AND to think THIS PARTY now wants to RUN the NATION!
"Amazing how Florida just can't seem to get out of the pig sty."
ON top of that, we're broke! damn.
What is amazing is why thier votes had no meaning to the DNC to begin with. Dean is a tyrant...... plain and simple. Those two states wanted to do thier own thing and the only problem was Dean. They didn't follow what he said and he took his 'ball & bat' and went home. Childish. Those people took the time to vote......... now how American is it to not count thier votes?
Wrong!!!!!
Florida Democrats and the DNC created this mess. This a totally Democrat problem totally caused by democrat's. Not Florida's!
This is Howard Dean's mess. The DNC imposed a draconian punishment on the two states. THe GOP had the exact same problem, and you don't hear any complaints from any disenfranchised Republicans.
But if the rules did somehow include "draconian punishment", why did ALL the states agree to them before the primaries? I think your assessment is incorrect. The problem here is not that the punishment isn't fitting, the problem is that MI and FL wanted their primaries to be "more important" by being earlier and they might have thought the punishment would not be inflicted because early in the campaign Sen. Clinton was the party favorite and they figured she would just graciously welcome the delegations from MI and FL at the convention and they could all be one big, happy family. Now that it looks like that might not happen, the violaters are trying to blame the DNC.
My point is that the GOP had the same problem and came up with a sane solution. Not seating an entire state's delegation at the convention is insane.
Dean thought the states would blink, and back down. They didn't and here we are. For a party talking about change, ending bickering, and making sure every vote counts this is unacceptable.
Even Obama thinks the delegations should have their voices heard, "I'll leave it up to the Democratic National Committee to make a decision about how to resolve it," Mr. Obama told ABC News on Thursday night. "But I certainly want to make sure that we've got Michigan and Florida delegates at the convention in some fashion."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/us/politics/0...
You are correct that Dean thought the states would abide by the rules. I think that MI and FL thought the DNC would blink and back down once they went forward. They didn't and here we are.
I think it is interesting that the DNC says they can't pay for the primary because they need the $ for the Pres. election. But both Sens. Clinton and Obama have raised such huge amounts of $, the paltry $ that the DNC has probably won't make much of a difference. Perhaps Sens. Clinton and Obama should advise the DNC that they won't need the DNC's $, so the DNC can pay for proper primaries in MI and FL. While that could work, I suspect other state parties might feel it isn't fair to those states that followed the rules.
Don't forget that the Obama and Clinton funds would be used for the presidential campaign only. The national parties do help support senate and house candidates from their funds and that would dry up on only one side if the national party had to fund the revoting of states that violated the rules. Truly should be paid by those who made the bad decisions on date which is the state party in Michigan and the State Government in Florida.
There is no what the national party can take the funds left from the losing candidate as well since those funds are then saved to pay future campaigns or given to other candidates for future campaigns, but never turned over to the national party and that is for both democrats and republicans.
Yes, that's true that the DNC would then not have the $ for other national races and it is not okay for the candidates to turn over their $ to the national party. Later in this thread, I've made an alternative suggestion that perhaps Sens. Clinton and Obama could split the cost of holding valid primaries in MI and FL. I'm not sure if there are any legal restrictions on that. I think maybe individual campaigns sometimes pay for recounts, but that isn't exactly the same.
The DNC has something over $3 million. The cost of just Florida is about $20 million. The DNC couldn't pay if they wanted to.
AnnoDomini said:
"The problem here is not that the punishment isn't fitting,"
Uhm Anno, the "punishment" was imposed by the DNC
"the problem is that MI and FL wanted their primaries to be "more important" by being earlier"
Who doesn't? The current primary system needs to be changed, rearranged. A randomly picked schedule for each presidential election.
Currently neither the DNC or the RNC want to change the primary order (That alone should be reason enough to change the primary system)
Yes, the punishment was imposed by the DNC, but some commentors have stated that the punishment was not appropriate. If the FL and MI state Dem parties thought the punishment was inappropriate, they should have objected when the DNC established the rules BEFORE the primary season started. Instead, they decided to violate the National party rules because they wanted their states to be more important. When you state "Who doesn't?", it may be accurate, but NO OTHER states broke the rules, even though they presumably would like to be more important too.
While an alternative primary system may be desirable (several have been proposed that sound better than what we have now), IF states choose to violate the current rules, they have to abide by the consequences, whatever they are. If the FL and MI Dems can make a convincing enough case that they are right, perhaps the other states will agree they can be seated. It doesn't appear likely right now...
I think that the position of the DNC in these cases is that MI and FL still have the chance to hold VALID primaries. It isn't really a "do-over" from the DNC perspective. Whatever MI and FL did before was not a valid primary (because it violated the rules that ALL the states had agreed to). As such, IF the states hold primaries sometime between now and June, they wouldn't really be "do-overs", but would, in fact, be simply the actual, real, valid primaries that the states SHOULD have scheduled all along.
Therefore, there isn't any issue with someone who voted before, but can't vote now or vice versa. The voters that would vote in a primary now are exactly the voters that would have voted if the states had followed the rules.
And what about those who could not vote for their choice because everyone but Clinton took their name off the ballot in Michigan. Florida is a different story and I will response to Ghost on that one.
I'll refer to the brain-dead walking ghost, here, too.
It was the republicans who set the date for the dem primary in florida, not the dems themselves. It's all a part of the proven repub tactic of disenfranchisement and alienation of black and poorer urban voters.
It is what it is.
They already have results, let them stand and be counted.
The Democrats in the legislature voted FOR that date, earthlingerer. They were fully complicit. It's bad enough that you have told the lie before; you simply compound the lie by repeating it.
Earthlingerer
"It's all a part of the proven repub tactic of disenfranchisement and alienation of black and poorer urban voters."
Good point Earthlingerer! So when the DNC decided not to count FL votes it was an EVIL plot to "disenfranchisement and alienation of black and poorer urban voters."
NO, wait, you said it was a Repub plot/ tactic to "disenfranchisement and alienation of black and poorer urban voters."
So why didn't the DNC foil/counter this plot/ tactic to "disenfranchisement and alienation of black and poorer urban voters."
By simply COUNTING FL VOTES!
Are the Dems to stupid to figure that out?
Earthlingerer
"They already have results, let them stand and be counted."
The Problem Earthlingerer, is that the DNC decided NOT to count their votes BEFORE the election and this was made CLEAR to the FL Dem voters, which makes it HIGHLY likely that FL Dem voters didn't vote cause they were told by the DNC that their vote didn't count.
Same with Michigan cept in Michigan the DNC told all candidates except Hillary and the Alien to remove their names FROM THE BALLOT!
or the one's who voted and their schedule won't allow them to vote the second time,,, their first vote has no meaning?
Do you have any idea what caused this fiasco in the first place?
The worst part about all this is that by doing this - even just floating the idea around, the democratic party will be harder to unify. In the end, that's what both candidates want.
Its making the Republicans very happy. It doesn't matter what they do someones toes will be stepped on. The only way for it not to be a big problem is if either Hillary or Obama have such a lead the states delegates don't matter. That was the thinking when Florida and Michigan set the dates. Hillary was the anointed one and no one else had a chance. That changed and now a train wreck looms.
Either do it over or don't count it. It's not the DNC trying to disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan. It's their own state politicians. If the state doesn't want to pay to do it by the rules, then let the voters of the state take it out on the idiots who broke the rules to begin with.
If you let these states slide, then no party will be able to set and enforce ANY rules to keep the primary system manageable. Every state will vote to leapfrog all the others and go first, and we will eventually be holding primaries to nominate people who haven't even been born yet.
"Either do it over or don't count it. It's not the DNC trying to disenfranchise the voters of Florida and Michigan"
I have to disagree, it's the states that decided "when" to have the election, it is the DNC that decided NOT TO COUNT THE VOTES.
Votes cast "franchise the voters"
Votes not counted "disenfranchise the voters"
"It's their own state politicians. If the state doesn't want to pay to do it by the rules, then let the voters of the state take it out on the idiots who broke the rules to begin with."
True
"If you let these states slide, then no party will be able to set and enforce ANY rules to keep the primary system manageable"
And this would be a bad thing?
The CURRENT sys "disenfranchise" half of the states.
BTW, can anyone explain how a "Super Delegate" fits into a Republic or a Democracy?
Super Delegate don't have to vote as a rep of their people, that means it fails in a Republic.
Super Delegate votes are more important than other Delegate votes, that means it fails in a Democracy.
As a Rabid Right New Repugnican, I am not surprised to find you pouring gasoline on this fire in hopes of melting down the opposition.
Trust me, it a state defied the super authoritarian RNC and jumped out of primary order the RNC would simply send out a slew of hit men then, after all the miscreants were dead, they would have their do-over without so much as a ruffle in the press.
My fellow Democrats should not use the do-over option. We should save that one for the general election in case we need it.
How could this be fair?
What about the candidates no longer in the race?
If the dems had actually counted Michigan and Florida the drop outs might not needed to drop out?
Actually James Carvelle said that the campaigns should split the cost. He also said he would start fundraising for Clintons half as soon a the Obama camp agrees. So far I don't believe Obama's side has responded.
Ya know it's MUCH harder to kick a Field Goal than it is to score a Touch Down, So lets "re-score" the Super bowl and make Field Goal count for 7 points and Touch Downs count for 3 points!
No wait to be fair we need to "Re-Score" the ENTIRE season! Ya that's the ticket