Bush The Torturer, The Tyrant, The Disgrace »
Posted By elzorro2162 7 months ago in NewsOn Saturday, Mr. Bush vetoed a bill that would have outlawed the CIA's use of torture in interrogations (a bill, it should be noted, John McCain, alleged opponent of torture, voted against). Not good for this country, whose reputation today takes one more plunk toward the abyss of rogue and less than ordinary nations.
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elzorro2162
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elzorro21627 months ago
This is the same Bush that is supporting McCain, the same guy who wants to remain there 100 Years! Let us restore America to the respect and admiration it once had.
Z
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SwampFox-82nd7 months ago
With a handle like Opa Locka, you can bet your respective sweet cheeks, SwampFox respects El Zorro. Hey, Zorro, I like your style. You know better than many, th'angs ain't always what they seem to be.
All I can post are the words a very wise dude articulated:
"Folks who forget the past, are doomed to relive it..."
'nuff said, Peace...
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slate7 months ago
Yeah Locky all three of em,,,, and for GAWDS sake it saved lives,,, let's not have that evil welded upon us by the lil rascal
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SwampFox-82nd7 months ago
Probably my spiffy 4-Toker (Bong, for lack of a better word)?
Don't know about you people, but here in Fogtown, we disabled vets get one medicine most don't. Forgive moi, time to get back to my meds.
'nuff said, Peace...puff, puff, puff, puff... ;-)
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Lurch7 months ago
torture among other illegal actions justifies their emotional investments in this admin and in hating all that is good about America - so how many more terrorists were created because of Bush torture and how many more Americans/Iraqis/other have been killed because of it does not compute in their little minds.
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slate7 months ago
hmmmmm so if you were the King,,, and you had someone that you had in your custody,, and say you knew he or she or they had information about a plot that would kill, hundreds,,,, thousands or millions,,, you'd do what? ask purdy please?
Look torture isn't somthing I take lightly, but in certian circumstances if I ever find out some bo zo let's a few thousand die because he/she didn't want to soil the good reputation of our nation,,,, I'd agree those people would be the first on my list to string up,,,, I hope I made that clear enough,,, whether you think that makes me evil or not matters a little less than zero
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tkyrchncs7 months ago
I would rather we all die innocent than that I die guilty. Give up, you cannot come up with a scenario in which I would torture for any reason other than my own perverse pleasure. If you would like a scenario like that then hand over our chief executive to me.
The biggest pitfall, slate, is that you don't get the truth by torturing people. You get whatever it is that the victim thinks will make it stop, or in case of the extremely courageous, you get information that throws you off the track. And who exactly are you going to entrust with the decision of when torture might be justified under your exceptional circumstances? An elected official? YIKES! A CIA agent? DOUBLE YIKES!
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SwampFox-82nd7 months ago
TK, therein we find our very own boo-boo. If our beloved waz-his-face and Triple-Chin Cheney are "forgiven by appointees," like following WWII. And if memory serves, both Nazi AND Japanese dudes were hanged, and/or shot for war crimes. Don't tell me that I'm some kind traitor, this is the truth, and you know it. First impeach both clowns for violating the oath sworn when they raised their hands being sworn-in. Violating the Constitution and the Bill of Rights of innocent Americans. I am one who will swear before God, Bush and Cheney deliberately lied to the American people about those WMD, silos, AND yellow-cake...knowingly. Believe it or not, that's called TREASON. Then they be tried before an open court, for the crimes mentioned above. Why?
Iraq = 4,000 , Vietnam = 57,000 missing and KIAs. Both started by our CIA over false reports. Hey buckaroos, doesn't one of you remember Nixon? The lies? And Ford pardoning Nixon. You clowns remember impeaching Clinton?
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Sandokan7 months ago
All this "indignation" on both sides of the aisle and not one is even seeing the effect this will have on the Geneva Convention article on non torture? I guess the good guys now in the grey zone, will no longer be able to cry out that the other side is doing things contra to GC Rules.
Shame ...
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Locky127 months ago
Yeah, because the scum we're fighting are following the GC to the letter.
Oh wait, no they're not.
They've beheaded non-combatants on Al-Jazeera for all to see.
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capecoralM7 months ago
Found it: HR 2082:
It appears that the veto is related to applying the "Army Field Manual to the interrogation activities of the Central Intelligence Agency" It appears that this may be a valid reason as Hayden points out the CIA is dealing with a different level of leadership than the Army is and that the "Army Field Manual" is not appropriate for a civilian agency of the US government. It appears McCain agrees with this veto.
McCain "Let me state this flatly: It was never our purpose to prevent the CIA from detaining and interrogating terrorists. On the contrary, it is important to the war on terror that the CIA have the ability to do so. At the same time, the CIA's interrogation program has to abide by the rules, including the standards of the Detainee Treatment Act." That remains my view today."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/...
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donald517 months ago
McCain didn't agree with the CIA doing this until he was forced on Cheney's carpet to bend his own anti-torture bill!
Secondly, the Army manual clearly and rightly says the information gleaned from torture is patently unreliable... Just because the CIA does it doesn't mean it now becomes reliable... since the specifics will never be leased to the contrary because of national security? What hogshit from Dumya!
Dumya said we are fighting an ideological conflict... and he shows constantly he will deal in the muck, breaking long held American principles!
Republicans truly are a terrorist organization!
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Candida7 months ago
capecoralM: "It appears that this may be a valid reason as Hayden points out the CIA is dealing with a different level of leadership than the Army is and that the "Army Field Manual" is not appropriate for a civilian agency of the US government."
Well, Hayden may think so, but President Bush seems to disagree. He doesn't pin his case on the different leadership, but on the need for the "enhanced" methods:
"Because the danger remains," Bush continued, "we need to ensure our intelligence officials have all the tools they need to stop the terrorists."
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Lurch7 months ago
Uh, they gave medical treatment to Jessica Lynch and allowed her to live.
Early on they seemed to treat captured allied soldiers with some respect. Then came Abu Ghraib, and all rules were tossed.
Also, you do know that the Saudi Arabian govt beheaded more prisoners than the `insurgents` during the same time period. (Harper`s) Since most of the AQ fighters are from our ally Saudi Arabia, they must teach that in high school, or is there a voc-tech for torture and beheading in SA? Maybe next time Bush kisses one of those guys on the lips he can ask them.
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tanglang7 months ago
BS!!! Two of our boys were dismembered and disembowled way before Abu Ghraib. Not to mention that beheading civilian contractors is WAY different than putting them in a pile naked. You cannot even begin to compare the two.
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tanglang7 months ago
If you want to see the individual attacks, here is a good referrence.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2001-...
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donald517 months ago
tang, yes, American contractors that indiscrimanently killed 18 innocents and then got immunity from our own government just a couple months ago!
Tang, read Rogue State and open your brain to the reality that Republicans have since WW2 given us the most killing foriegn policies in history!
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Candida7 months ago
tanglang: "If you want to see the individual attacks, here is a good referrence."
This list may be perfectly accurate and still be misleading and biased. There is a lot of conflict in the world, and the document lists only the Muslim attacks. It has numerous entries from India and Iraq. Most of the attacks in Iraq started after the US invasion. If the US hadn't attacked them, not a single US citizen would have been tortured or decapitated by them. In the case of India, I clearly remember that there were severe conflicts there, but they had nothing to do with 9/11, and it wasn't only the Muslims who killed others. If people learned to live and let live, we would have a lot fewer beheadings.
Here is a description of what's happening in India:
"India has lost approximately 71,000 lives to terrorism and extremism over the last decade in the major irregular and sub-conventional wars that afflict the country."
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/2003/chap...
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tanglang7 months ago
It's making a point about the religion of "peace", and what they condone. As for the attacks in Iraq, that's kinda what I was talking about. The fact that we removed the psychos from power and they will stop at nothing to get it back. Which no decent human being would allow. Just ask the Kurds how these people acted when in a position of power.
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donald517 months ago
Hey tang, how about Dumya threatening to veto the Defense Appropriation bill this year until the clause helping our soldiers that were tortured by Sadam in '91 was removed! Dumya didn't want our soldiers to be able to sue for damages, but Dumya has allowed Japanese and Korean companies to sue for reparations!
Isn't it amazing that you Repugs have no scrupples, should be declared terrorists and you still think you are real Americans!
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tanglang7 months ago
Well, we have o control over other countries. As for our soldiers from 91, they shuold not be allowed to sue the current government for something a previous government did. IF we were tlking business, Iraq would be a whole different country and not liable for something the last country called Iraq did. It sucks, but you can ask a lawyer, that's how it works.
"Isn't it amazing that you Repugs have no scrupples, ***should be declared terrorists*** and you still think you are real Americans!"
You can go straight to hell for that one.
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tkyrchncs7 months ago
Nope. Most are just the loyal opposition. I do not doubt the sincerity and patriotism of Republicans in general. You will find very few blanket comments by me about them, or any other large group. All of my Republican friends and (For Shame!) family wish, like I do, that the CIC and most of his nefarious gang were on the moon.
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Candida7 months ago
tanglang: "As for our soldiers from 91, they shuold not be allowed to sue the current government for something a previous government did."
How big a change in government is needed before you can claim that it was the previous government? I suppose changing the government through elections wouldn't be sufficient. Not even if the communists got into power? How about an internal revolution? Is that good enough to get out of all liabilities? Or does this apply only to puppet governments?
As far as I know, Germany had a different government after WWII than before, and still it had to pay reparations.
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Lurch7 months ago
That`s an impressive list Tang. Thanks.
But I would confirm against other lists - the name of the site betrays an ideological bias. Claiming all terrorists and shootings around the world were conducted by a specific religion is an utterly naive concept.
Actually, the US was torturing and killing before Bush even invaded Iraq, so there really is no argument which came first, US torture or AQ beheadings in Iraq.
The US has killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq alone. Some 100 hundred or more prisoners died while in US custody, at least 38 of them from brute force blows, while in US custody. To try to claim any moral high ground not only flies in the face of the facts, it just shows your ignorance and naive wishful thinking.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/30/63549/863
Your message won`t change the facts, but the facts will (hopefully) change your message.
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Lurch7 months ago
this from a guy who posts a link from `the religion of peace`. lol.
I could tell the difference between us vs them before Bush and the cons took over. Now it`s hard to tell the difference.
> ...you have some issues I am not prepared to deal with.
I`ll try to explain it in the simplest terms I can, but some things are just impossible.
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tanglang7 months ago
That's not even close to what I was saying. Lurch was trying to say that how they treated Jessica Lynch was typical until abu ghraib. I was calling bs on that.
As for the bs about "but they were doing it", we have NEVER ever cut some terrorists dck off and fed it to him before beheading him. We have never disemboweled someone. We have never let angry mobs rip them limb from limb.
Waterbaording is not torture, listening to the American left cry about stuff like this is.
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tkyrchncs7 months ago
We have executed people, using waterboarding as part of the evidence to do so, and it should not stop with Germans and Japanese, if that is going to be the penalty. We have several officials, elected and appointed who are guilty of exactly the same thing. The difference in forms of torture is degree, not kind.
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NoSpinDave7 months ago
LIBERAL MUMBO JUMBO
COMPLETE LEFT WING EXTREMIST PROPOGANDA
You know, I bet if we investigated some of the left wing extremists that pollute this website you would be suprised how may of them have direct ties to terrorist orginizations.
Propoganda is just another front in their war on freedom and democracy.
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disraeli7 months ago
A rather broad and unsubstantiated generalization. I'm curious though how the "freedom and democracy" that is the target of this propaganda squares with a society that advocates torture, suspends basic jurisprudence, engages in indefinite detention without charges, invades sovereign countries and randomly and without warrant spies on its own citizens. That's a rather lengthy list of things that were once upon a time frowned on.
So if opposition to those is left wing and support of those things is right wing don't you think that the nomenclature applied to the political spectrum is in need of a change to left wing and wrong wing?
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NoSpinDave7 months ago
"a society that advocates torture, suspends basic jurisprudence, engages in indefinite detention without charges, invades sovereign countries and randomly and without warrant spies on its own citizens. That's a rather lengthy list "of things that were once upon a time frowned on."
A rather lenghty list of left wing extremist talking points.....all of which have been proven baseless countless times by countless people here at libscape (and elsewhere).
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UnusualSuspect7 months ago
Some people, like myself, would just like to think of our country as a beacon of hope again, one that doesn't succumb to the same tactics and propaganda as our enemies.
But, people like AllSpinDave apparently want justice, (or revenge, more likely) at any cost, even to the extent that we commit the same war crimes as anyone else in this world.
We will never defeat our enemies as long as act like them.
AllSpin...if libscape is such a terrible place to speak your mind, why not start up another site...one that espouses the Conservative point of view? If you hate the views expressed here that much, why not consider that?
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tanglang7 months ago
Look, even if you don't agree with waterboarding or anything else, and evenif we were to stop doing so, don't you think it's a good idea to not let the enemy know what we will and will not do? Every Peewee league football coach knows you don't show the other team your playbook.
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donald517 months ago
We're talking about how corrupt the play book is... not whether you falsely claim everything must be hidden because of national security as Dumya does! Even this article has innocent people renditioned and tortured whose claims are thrown out due to the overiding claim of national security while admitting the claims are valid - how Un-American!
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Lurch7 months ago
The Bush playbook says stomp their ankles when they are down and punch the ref if he tries to enforce the rules on us - kick him in the nuts if he doesn`t enforce the rules on the other team.
You may win a game or even a season, but you`ve f`ed the game, your players, and your reputation for a lot longer than those wins will benefit you.
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slate7 months ago
Have you ever been threatened by a group or with a gun? Oh heard on the street someone plans to do you harm? Where I was raised, those things were taken seriously and it was learned at a very early age to take the fight to the threat over sitting and waiting to have to deal with the threat on their terms and time frame
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Candida7 months ago
There are many ways of dealing with threats; fight is not the only one, nor is it the best one, and I'm talking about real threats here, not imaginary ones.
Laws are created to make sure that everyone is treated fairly. If the powerful pick and choose which laws they want to follow, what can you expect from the powerless?
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slate7 months ago
real threats like say, a plot to blow up 5-10 planes flying over from the UK?
Are you more glad to not have had to had another 'date' burned into your memory because they water boarded someone?
http://www.thudfactor.com/national-politics/tor...
Don't talk about theroy,,, they have a thing called War games,,,, you know they make up situations so they can figure out a resonable response.....
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tkyrchncs7 months ago
No, I am not. If you allow your government to control you and spy on your because of fear, you are NOT FREE. The occasional price of our freedom is the death of some of us. Our Founders did not find this too high a price, and neither do I. If that has to be me or mine the next time, so be it. I am ready to die. I am NOT ready to live in a country where my elected officials conduct unjustifiable and insupportable foreign war, spy on my every move and phone call, violate basic human rights like habeas corpus, and TORTURE people, without even the mitigation of doing good to ordinary Americans. I am done with these (Supply your favorite perjorative. I can't think of one bad enough, and the list would take me the rest of the day.)
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slate7 months ago
The occasional price of our freedom is the death of some of us.
You gotta be kidding me?
SO the occasional death of say a few more 9/11s is a price you're willing to pay to feel good? Man oh Man I hope none of your loved ones dies when that happens,,, I'm sure you won't be so understanding if you find out they had a suspect, but decided your loved ones lives weren't as important as the high price of what people would think if we torured someone to save them.
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Candida7 months ago
tanglang: "don't you think it's a good idea to not let the enemy know what we will and will not do?"
No, I don't. If the US wants the respect of the world then it has to make clear that it will respect its treaty obligations.
A few weeks ago, the US government threw a tantrum over a Canadian training manual that listed the US as a country where people might be tortured. The Canadian government buckled and removed the reference. After all that, the US President vetoes a bill because it doesn't allow torture, and you advocate making others think that torture is not out of question even if it is. Don't you find that something is jarring in this sequence of events?
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Lurch7 months ago
actually, not once has any of that been proven incorrect, by anybody anywhere except in your head. Your skull is so thick the kool-aid apparently cannot evaporate.
How on earth anyone could promote such anti-american, anti-liberty, anti-freedom ideas such as torture, war for profit, illegal domestic spying, removal of habeas corpus and so on is beyond anything the founding fathers would have stood for.
You make every citizen and soldier who has ever died for freedom roll over and vomit in their graves.
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disraeli7 months ago
NoSpin,
So your position is that the US has done none of the things on my list.
We must both be inhabitants of Bizzaro world. Me because I decry the US's use of torture, where else but Bizarro world would the US's official policy include the use of torture. You on the other hand because you deny it, even after the Bush II administration has admitted it.
Your assertion that the rule of law and freedom from indefinite detention without charge or trial constitute left wing extremist thought is risible.
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Candida7 months ago
NoSpinDave: "A rather lenghty list of left wing extremist talking points.....all of which have been proven baseless countless times by countless people here at libscape (and elsewhere)."
Please humor those of us who haven't seen those proofs and present them again. I don't expect you to type them all out, links will suffice.
Considering that this article is about the advocacy of torture, it's a pretty sweeping statement to say that "all of which have been proven baseless." Hasn't the President of the US just vetoed a bill that would have outlawed torture, and isn't his rationale based on the claim that it cannot be outlawed because it's a useful tool?
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djn3nunez37 months ago
I have no desire to insult you. I think alot of what you say is outragous and I will do everything I can to show the mendaciousness of it.
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