Sources: Top Bush Advisors Approved 'Enhanced Interrogation' »
Posted By berkeley 6 months ago in NewsThe advisers were members of the National Security Council's Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security policy. At the time, the Principals Committee included Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, George Tenet and John Ashcroft.
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berkeley
If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public ...
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berkeley5 months, 4 weeks ago
bush did. his exact words were
"And, yes, I'm aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved."
http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPolitics/Story?...
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automan9096 months ago
I see no problem with their methods if they save American lives. And they do save American lives.
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sinophil496 months ago
auto - The Nazis tortured many prisoners and conducted medical experiments. Much of it was sheer cruelty, of course. But some of it was done because the Nazi doctors thought they were doing legitimate medical studies to SAVE GERMAN LIVES.
Your thinking is so primitive and savage. The same excuse and self-justification has been used by countless leaders and generals to extract information from prisoners "to save lives."
A variation of that thinking is the famous line, "We had to destroy the village to save it" that came out in the Vietnam War.
The rule of law is paramount in modern society and in our system of government. It is what separates us from animals and distinguishes our form of govt from the arbitrary rule of monarchs and despots.
Moreover, it has been shown countless times that torture produces wrong or uselesss information. The tortured simply spills out whatever he thinks will please the torturer, simply to get the pain to stop.
I have yet
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sinophil496 months ago
to hear any military official prove that any information obtained under torture saved ANY American lives or was used in ANY military battle.
Lastly, torturing prisoners for interrogative purposes almost always deteriorates into torture for the fun of it. This is amply shown in Abu Ghraib where the American guards started devising all sorts of physical abuses just to humiliate the prisoners and for their own pleasure.
America was a signatory of the Geneva Conventions. We pledged ourselves to follow that set of laws (yes, laws).
Now, I guess, we are telling the world our pledge and our word are utterly without value. No one n the world should trust us anymore. We are free to renounce any treaty JUST BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT SAYS SO. That was the basic premise of those memos written by John Woo under Alberto Gonzales
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jordan116 months ago
I see no problem with their methods if they save American lives. And they do save American lives.>>>>
How do you feel about those that have been tortured who were no threat to us? Collateral damage? Their lives are worth less than your life because you're an "American?"
How do know lives have been saved? How about those who were tortured to death? Did they give valuable information, or did their interragators enjoy their jobs a little 'too much?'
Do you really believe that anything your government decides has to be right? Do you ever think about the consequences of your governments actions? Did it ever occur to you that more enemies are being created against Americans, including old allies who find us now repugnant? Is being 'top dog' so important to you, that human beings are disposable?
Just a few things for you to chew on.
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sinophil496 months ago
jordan - excellent point about torture of innocent prisoners who may simply have been caught up in "sweeps" or been falsely accused by angry neighbors, etc.
I guess in Abu Ghraib it's not innocent until proven guilty; it is "You're damn guilty because I gotcha and I say so and I can have some fun with ya."
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Muleskinner6 months ago
I agree completely. I don't care if they wrap these terrorists in pig skins and make them listen to CNN all day if it saves one American life :o). There are situations where nothing should be off limits to extract information form these muslim exremists.
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bluenote15226 months ago
Auto, I'm with you
The Libs would want to put these dirtbags in a 5 star all-inclusive resort until they broke down and talked.
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sinophil496 months ago
bluenote and automan - Instead of posting trite little comments about 5 star hotels for terrorists or making claims of lives saved, prove to the world these allegations of lives saved and usefulness of information gathered.
In case you didn't know, John McCain, the presumptive Republican candidate for the presidency, is strongly against torture.
Bluenote - I suppose the comment about the 5-star hotel is your snide way of saying that libs are too soft on terrorsits or we are traitors, etc. These are just tired old cliches that have been seen so many times on these blog sites. Bring in some fresh new ideas. Or even some fresh new insults. At least it would be interesting to read.
The person who is the softest on terrorists is Bush. He cut and ran out of Afghanistan. He let Osama live. He said he doesn't even think much about OBL anymore. Imagine, the biggest terrorist of them all and Bush takes a pass on him.
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Goppy6 months ago
Oh sino, you juest dont get us Christian Conservatives.
This is how we talk when we dont got any morals.
And believe me, this administration is liekly the most immoral administration in American History.
But it shouldnt be no surprise to America. Think bout it. Christian Conservatives elected GW. We voted for him by liek 96%.
hEs are reflection of our values. And if you need a picture of what those values are, think bout Jesus Christ. Now think bout everything you know that Jesus ever said.
OUR Christian Conservative values are the exact OPPOSITE of that.
Get it?
Thats why we support:
- Arbitrary, pre-emptive, unilateral war
- Lies to promote arbitrary war
- Scurilous twistin of CIA intellegence to make a case for arbitrary war
- Torture (even as its been proved the intellegence from this method is iffy)
...
In addition we supprt:
- Ways to keep kids from gettin health care
- Ways to keep vets from gettin benefits
- Ways to keep Walter Reed from servin our vets adequately
etc.
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Goppy6 months ago
I hope this helps to explain things to you libbies.
I see stuff all the tiem liek what bluey and autoey say.
When you hear that c rap, you know we are backed into a ethical corner, with no moral or philosophical or honest position.
THATS when we bring out the "Oh you libbies would serve Osama Bin Laden a 5 course dinner with Chateaunef de Pape".
Or: "You libbies is all Socialist with your push for Health Care! How dare you think of helpin Americans! Thats ANTI-AMERICAN!! We only believe in helpin Oil companies and Inshurance companies ... and Iraqis."
See how we work it?
Shure, we are some pretty screwed up bunch, but HEY, we got Goerge W. Bush elected!
AND HES DESTINED TO BE THE WORST PRESDIENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY!!!
So take THAT!!
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quackpot6 months ago
bluenote,
Do you mean real dirtbags or aledged dirtbags?
Do you think that a person should be tortured is they are only an aledged dirtbag?
How do you think people should determine whether a person is a real dirtbag or an aledged dirtbag?
How would you expect to be treated if you were unfortuante enough to have been erroneously picked up by the authorities and labled aledged dirtbag (yes, people ARE erroneously picked up by the authorites)?
To me, the idea of a trial comes to mind, but perhaps you could suggest alternative methods?
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cleare6 months ago
all of you who support variations of "torture" to extract information are waaaay off base. experts in the field have long since developed far better, more humane and MORE EFFECTIVE methods to extract information from enemy captives.
i don't know about you, but the more violent my captors become, the more stubborn i would become...and i don't have anywhere near our captives' religious, righteous convictions. i'm also not expecting 99 virgins to greet me in case my interrogators get a little too "enthusiastic".
there are no circumstances under which i would approve or authorize torture. as far as i'm concerned, this is just another war crime committed by this miserable administration.
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zman6 months ago
More disregard for both US & Int'l Law - no wonder so many US & Gloabl Citizens disdain these pukes
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zman6 months ago
There never was a more clear case for Impeachment in the history of the US - broken US & Int'l laws, condoning torture, abuse of American Rights, gutting signed laws, spying on Americans, getting us into a phoney war, exploding our debt, lining the pockets of friends in Big Oil..............what a waste of a human being and dumb puppet of the neocons!
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hdrkid6 months ago
Torture is evil and those who use "enhanced interrogation" are no better than Nazis. I was only following orders is no excuse. At one time the United States stood for liberty and justice, but now it has become a police state that tortures people.
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bluenote15226 months ago
sin and the rest of the libs, yes you are soft. Period. End of discussion. Sorry if that sounds condemning but Clinton let Saddam yank our chain for way too long. There is a time for backing up your words and Liberals project their human compassion on folks that aren't deserving. The whole world knew Saddam was a scumbag but didn't have the might to stand up to this bully. You guys are good for cooking our meals and washing our clothes but not in defending our country. So go huddle in the corner and we'll let you know when it's safe to come out and start spewing your idealistic view of the world. There are bad guys that want to do bad things to us. I don't like it either but to not deal with the reality would be lethal. Stop hating Bush and keep your eye on the ball. Next year your guy can come in and see what you can do. Obama is not gonna get us out. He will have sitdowns and legitimize these terrorists and Europe will pull it's sanctions and then we're in trouble.
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sinophil496 months ago
bluenote - I have 3 little words to say to you. OSAMA BIN LADEN. We know who the real threat to the USA and the world is
Nowhere, at no time did I or any liberal say the Saddam Hussein was a kind and gentle person. Yes he is evil. BUT HE WAS NOT A THREAT TO THE USA.
Sure you're a tough guy - great. Bush wants to pretend he is tough. So when he couldn't nab OBL, he (and it looks like you) felt he had to show his machismo by attacking a more vulnerable and stationary target. Bush wanted to feel like a winner, so he justified the diversion by saying he never much of OBL any more.
Don't you get it by now? You have to be tough against the right enemy. If you like corporate-speak, you have to prioritize your goals.
No one would ever question your toughness - OK. YOU ARE REALLY MEAN AND TOUGH!! YOU ARE TOP DOG!! YOU CAN ORDER US AROUND TO COOK YOUR MEALS AND WASH YOUR LAUNDRY.
But your and Bush's judgment and decision making are stupid. You let OBL get away.
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sinophil496 months ago
So we got rid of a bad character in Saddam. What have we accomplished?
A torn country w/ 600,000 dead and over 4 million refugees
A fragmented, hatefilled country that is unmanageable
A practice field where al Qaida and assorted terrorist groups take potshots at our troops,
No more counterforce to the military ambitions of Iran
The derision of most of the western world and certainly the animosity of most of the Muslim world
A rallying point for Muslim terrorists to recruit more converts
$10 trillion national debt
A plunging dollar
A depleted, exhausted, demoralized military
Over 4000 dead US soldiers
An anguished, polarized, uncertain US population
No clear end point to our nightmare (if McCain is elected)
A marked drop in the world's oil supply (Iraq is still not producing any oil) and record oil prices
Afghanistan & Pakistan so fragile and vulnerable that could fall to fundamental, radical muslim rule
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