Politics – Key elements of the Bush administration's anti-terrorist detention policies appear to be unraveling. A military judge disqualified a Pentagon legal official from participating in the trial of Salim Ahmed Hamdan, all charges against Mohammad al-Qahtani were dropped, and Sami Al-Haj was released after 6 years in detention without charge.
How much of the knowledge that the Bush administration pretended to have might have been achieved in same way? Most of the persons who left Guantanamo after years of arrestation, were released without any explanation. Perhaps, they will never have the chance to get to know what crimes they had been accused for. This kind of juridical treatment is not fitting in with my imagination of democracy! It is for good reasons that confessions made under the influece of torture are not usable in a court of law. We should know that since the times of inquisition.
They should all be shot instead of kept in jail.
The Geneva Convention says that if the enemy is not wearing a uniform identifying him then he is a spy and can be shot instead of captured.
By the way.. I have no problem water boarding someone to save American lives.
Man, when are people who keep defending this Administrations international law breaking going to actually READ the Geneva Conventions...
The Geneva convention says that non uniformed soldiers/ members of the armed forces(aka troops recognized as such by their home country's government) can be treated as spies. Since nobody in all of Gitmo is a soldier, or recognized as such by their home country(or any country for that matter) it does not apply here...
Just ask yourself this if you still don't agree.. What is a terrorists "Uniform"? How does one say a group of people are out of uniform if they have no official uniform, and are not sanctioned by a government to be said governments army?
Not just that, but...when are people going to learn how to reason using basic logic?
automan said, "...if the enemy is not wearing a uniform identifying him then he is a spy and can be shot instead of captured."
His statement about shooting detainees rather than capturing them assumes these people are enemies without any kind of legal determination that they are, indeed, enemies.
automan proposes shooting suspects on the spot. Sounds positively...totalitarian.
Sounds like what Terrorists do... No trial, no judge, no jury. Just call em infidels and kill em... Sad part is, a large portion of "Freedom loving" Americans think this way, with absolutely no realization that they are supporting something the "enemy" would do. Something that is supposed to be one of the things that separates us from them...
Unfortunately, those freedoms and rights that separate us from them have all been "temporarily" suspended in order to fight terrorism.
How do Bush supporters not understand that we've become exactly what we're supposed to be fighting against?
Sometimes when you fight rats you have to get in the sewer.
Not if you're trying to convince all the others watching that you're better than the rats.
So you would be against undercover cops?
oh, now i get it! giant rat suits are gonna be our new uniform! good idea. wouldn't want to break any geneva convention laws
You have to try and understand the conversation before you become involved. Try and read the posts again and see if you can pick up on the points being made.
Undercover cops *pretend* to do all the same things the criminals they're infiltrating do.
But they're not allowed to actually take drugs, have sex with hookers, or kill mobsters.
Right?
In addition, undercover cops' main goal isn't to prevent the creation of more criminals. They're not trying to convince innocents that being criminal is wrong--they're simply trying to catch criminals.
When our country begins to operate like terrorists, foreigners who are not terrorists can't see why they should align themselves with us.
Christopher Bollyn was not even framed for terrorism. He was arrested by secret police and subjected to a show trial, simply for expressing the wrong opinions regarding the the war on terror and Israel. He fled to Europe with his family, or else he might be worse off than Guantanamo prisoners. He could be a sex slave in a maximum security prison. See "The Bollyn Trial: The Criminalization of an Outspoken Journalist," http://donoevil.propeller.com/story/2008/05/21/...
"Just ask yourself this if you still don't agree.. What is a terrorists "Uniform"? How does one say a group of people are out of uniform if they have no official uniform, and are not sanctioned by a government to be said governments army?"
Uhhhhh, this is exactly why the Geneva Convention was had and why it does not apply to these people.
They are not following the rules of the Geneva Convention but you want the rules of the Geneva Convention to apply to THEM???
What the heck sense does that make???
As far as torture goes I'm sorta split, is it worth torturing 20, 30, 300 innocents to find the one guy who was planning on blowing up a football stadium full of people?
"As far as torture goes I'm sorta split, is it worth torturing 20, 30, 300 innocents to find the one guy who was planning on blowing up a football stadium full of people?"
huh? so it's a numbers thing to you and not a question of respecting and upholding civilized behavior to salvage your own dignity and humanity. and how do you know anyone was planning on blowing up a football stadium full of people? seems to me you just pulled that one out of your butt to try and give your lame point some moral clout. you've been watching way too much 24
"They should all be shot instead of kept in jail. "
You mean the Bush administration, right?
No, I think he meant the terrorists. You know, the ones who protest Teddy Bears named Muhammed and not retarded girls strapped up with bombs to kill Shiite children in pet stores.
Oh. I'm surprised he didn't mean the monsters that invaded another country, killed 4000 of their own, wounded hundreds of thousands of others and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghanis due to an ethnic-cleansing euphimism called "collateral damage."
GOOD bit of taqqiya, O "I'm not a Muslim".
"GOOD bit of taqqiya, O "I'm not a Muslim". "
Now I completely understand your obsession with lying.
It's projection.
Unfortunately 4000 dead Americans, tens of thousands of severely wounded Americans and many more mentally wounded Americans along with hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghans due to 'collateral damage' aren't lies of any sort.
What, are you saying American troops deaths are caused by American troops now? I wouldn't be surprised, since you think it's American troops that have caused most of the suicide bomb attacks in Shiite market places, etc., since THAT is the reason so many Iraqis have been killed over there since American troops arrived on the scene.
Somebody that you don't know might decide that you are a terrorist because the name automan909 is about the same as automan 989.
Then, after holding you for six years without trial (opportunity for you to correct the error) they might let you go.
After this, I hope you will be highly thankful for the experience when some idiot suggests that you should have been shot straight away.
909 or 989. your point reminds me of that movie Brazil. buttle or tuttle. what's in a name when it leads to indefinite detention, torture and an unknown unheard of death.... of the wrong suspect. only a wife and some kids dealing with unresolved grief and a burning growing hatred against a monolithic far away power that is so incomprehensible it may as well be aliens from another planet.
nevermind, it's just "justice" seen to be done and that's all that matters to automan and others.
all the while justice slowly dies
Automan909,
The charges against the Guantanamo prisoners are proven lies, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was killed in Karachi on September 11, 2002. Although I take back what I once said about the prisoner being Ahmed Abdul Qadus. See "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was killed six years ago." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aachat_alternativ...
It is also as certain as anything can be that our own government perpetrated the September 11 terrorism, with some help from the Mossad and MI6. Attention sock puppets: you lack the honesty and courage of hired assassins and traitors for money. You are also fools. Whatever you are being paid, it is not enough.
It seems like we have turned into the Soviet Union that I grew up fearing - complete with its gulags in Siberia.
I wasn't aware of the prisoners in the gulags were given three squares a day that is also religous friendly, prayer blankets and allowed to plat soccer. I wonder why millions died in gulags? Bad water maybe?
wow, you make them sound like.... pets.
let's put you on leash, danel, and after a few years let's see just how grateful you are to have your 3 squares. btw, you can forget about your home, you family and everything and everyone you every knew. you won't be needing those memories coz you'll never have anything to do with them ever again. all you'll have is a cage, a mat and 3 squares.
but hey, 3 squares, right? yipee!!!
If the captives are prisoners in a "War on Terrorism," then they should be afforded all the protections due to prisoners of war and these trials are a violation of their rights under international law. If, on the other hand, these prisoners are criminals, then they are due all the rights and protections due other criminal defendants, including the right of habeus corpus, the right to a speedy trial, and the right to defense counsel of their choosing.
Either way, it is obvious that the current administration has screwed it up.
The biggest thing that sets our society apart from most others is that we have freedoms and rights. To maintain that structure for our people we often must work to protect the freedoms and rights of those we most violently disagree with.
Once we cross the line saying certain individuals or groups not longer deserve those freedoms and rights we set up a sitaution where we may be in the next group outcast. Hard as it is sometimes the only way to protect what we all appreciate is to protect the same things as strongly as we can for those we most hate and disagree with. Thats the way our republic works. For those not sure we are not a democracy where everyone has a say in every decision, we are representative republic where we vote for representatives that represent in the government.
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FTA: "Using torture to string together a web of so-called evidence is illegal, immoral and cannot be the basis for a fair trial,"
Amen to that.