Military service: A diminished campaign asset? »
Posted by: TechnologyExpert 1 month, 2 weeks ago210 Comments Report this Story
For McCain, getting shot down and enduring as a POW has been a political asset. Now Clark was suggesting that the "getting shot down" part was an irrelevant--at least as far as being a credential for the White House.
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KvilleTXComment removed: User banned.69 Replies
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DanmLiberals1 month, 2 weeks ago
Clark, were you for military service before you were against it? this is what he said about John Kerry when he was the Democrat Nominee:
"John Kerry has heard the thump of enemy mortars. He's seen the flash of the tracers. He's lived the values of service and sacrifice. In the Navy, as a prosecutor, as a senator, he proved his physical courage under fire. And he's proved his moral courage too.
John Kerry fought a war, and I respect him for that. And he came home to fight a peace. And I respect him for that, too.
John Kerry's combination of physical courage and moral values is my definition of what we need as Americans in our commander in chief. [...]
John Kerry is a man who in time of war can lead us as a warrior [...]
He has the moral courage born in battle..."
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wtagg1 month, 2 weeks ago
Are you for McCain after you were against him? Many of his supporters wanted nothing to do with him as little as 6 months ago.
I'm with Joe. I'm writing in Paul, a conservative. A label that you can't place upon McCain.
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baddad59Comment removed: User banned.13 Replies
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Candida1 month, 2 weeks ago
No, it's not funny, but neither is it heroic. When you are POW, you do anything to survive, and I would neither praise nor blame anyone for that. Suffering, in itself, is not a badge of honor. That was beyond his control.
I saw a report on Clark's statement on ABC today. One of the reporters, who traveled with McCain, asked him what he learned during those five years that qualifies him as a leader. He got so angry, that he said nothing for minutes. When he finally answered, he said something like: I've learned to love my country. That's it? He had to become a POW to learn to love his country, and that qualifies him to become president? Even I could have come up with a better answer.
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DanmLiberals1 month, 2 weeks ago
Wtagg,
Do you know any of us personally? How do you know if I liked John Mccain before or not? How do you know if I like him now?
You know the reason why we have such horrible presidential candidates? It's because every time someone tries to criticize a candidate, they are labeled as Democrat/Republican, which leads to nothing but name calling and fake accusations. How is it that you didn't notice my criticism of both candidates at the beginning of my last post?
However, since I have to pick between Mccain and Obama, I support Mccain. I'm not falling for your trick of acting like a conservative and stating that you will vote for Ron Paul. Ron Paul is not a Conservative. His ideas are as wacky as they get and he will never get my vote.
Vote Mccain. He is the better of the two numbskull's.
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earthlingerer1 month, 2 weeks ago
How would someone know???
One could go back an look at what you said/wrote, or implied earlier... propeller DOES have a memory, you know!
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Candida1 month, 2 weeks ago
DanmLiberals: "Ron Paul is not a Conservative. His ideas are as wacky as they get"
Some of his ideas are wacky, but he is a Conservative. He is just not a Neocon.
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saintetienne1 month, 2 weeks ago
"Are you for McCain after you were against him? Many of his supporters wanted nothing to do with him as little as 6 months ago."
Please. With Barack Obama as the opposition, I'd vote for a can of tuna as president. Anyone who may have been a bit cool to John McCain - or even outright against him - have now found themselves in full support of him, when faced with prospect of the junior senator from Illinois in the ill-fitting suit and the sh*t-eating grin sitting in the White House.
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GLee1 month, 2 weeks ago
I really do hope Obama chooses Clark as his VP candidate. Those two can really push out the crap from the side of their combined mouths.
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spkguy1 month, 2 weeks ago
KvilleTX
"Clark was assigned a position in the 1st Infantry Division and flew to Vietnam on May 21, 1969 during the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War. He worked as a staff officer, collecting data and helping in operations planning, and was awarded the Bronze Star for his work with the staff. Clark was then given command of A Company, 1st Battalion, 16th Infantry of the 1st Infantry Division in January 1970. In February, only one month into his command, he was shot four times by a Viet Cong soldier with an AK-47. The wounded Clark shouted orders to his men, who counterattacked and defeated the Viet Cong force. Clark had injuries to his right shoulder, right hand, right hip, and right leg, and was sent to Valley Forge Army Hospital in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania to recuperate. He was awarded the Silver Star for his actions during the encounter"
Any man who takes 4 bullets for his country, IMO has right to speak his mind!
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injest1 month, 2 weeks ago
"Any man who takes 4 bullets for his country, IMO has right to speak his mind!"
Yawn, so he managed to get shot in a war zone, how is that a qualifier for his "opinion?
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
"Yawn, so he managed to get shot in a war zone, how is that a qualifier for his "opinion?
insofar as matters relating to issues of service, it qualifies his opinion much more so than being a fraud behind a keyboard, injest...or perhaps we should rephrase the whole thing...
"Yawn, so he managed to get shot down in a war zone, how is that a qualifier for his being President"...Hey, that works! and it is valid and legitimate as well...thank you for justifying Gen. Clarks statement
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lfergie8121 month, 2 weeks ago
At least Clark had the ability to keep from getting captured. Why is it that when a "war hero" is a Republican he is held in high esteem but when he's a Democrat he's a pencil pushing desk clerk. LMAO
McCain couldn't even begin to grasp Clark's knowledge of the military. While Clark was still in the military serving his country McCain was switching wives in pursuit of riches from lobbyist.
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slate1 month, 2 weeks ago
LOL hot-dogging a jet? You are a a piece of work,,,,
Why do you on the lef and your leadership feel you need to sink to this level whenyou have a sure thing this election?
Maybe you see that you need the extra help and it's not the sure thing you pound your chest about?
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
perhaps that wish of yours for illiteracy has come true...
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Candida1 month, 2 weeks ago
No slate, "they" will argue the same thing Mr. Clark did:
"There's a distinction between having shown your courage and commitment as a soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine in the United States armed forces, and having learned from that the judgment that will make you a better president. I think ultimately this is a question about who has the better judgment to be commander-in-chief."
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slate1 month, 2 weeks ago
As opposed to having zero experience with the military?
McCain spent years, living it, being it, serving it, being in actual combat, being shot out of the sky and held captive and tortured?
Oh I get it, how could that give you a little more insight over some empty suit that's been a Senator for a couple of years. Yeah I see your point.
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Candida1 month, 2 weeks ago
injest: "Yawn, so he managed to get shot in a war zone, how is that a qualifier for his "opinion?"
If it's not a qualifier for an opinion, then it probably isn't a qualifier for the presidency either.
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DropkickaLib1 month, 2 weeks ago
He had a reputation as a political hack, which all generals at the top ranks are.
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Codi69341 month, 2 weeks ago
spkguy
It isn't his right to speak that is being questioned. What Clark is doing is degrading a follow servicemen. Clark went home with 4 bullets in him, but McCain stayed behind getting the sh*t kicked out of him for 3 more years after Clark was home. I would stack McCains or Clarks resume against Obama's anyday. Why he would say that makes me really question his motives. I am not a Clark fan, McCain I will watch like a hawk. But this only shows how liberal Democrats change their mind when the wind changes directions.
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injest1 month, 2 weeks ago
FTA
"That judgment theme fits neatly into what Obama has argued from the start: that he, unlike rivals Hillary Clinton and McCain, had the good sense to not support the 2002 resolution authorizing President Bush to invade Iraq."
Hum? Considering Public opinion at the time had 72% favoring the invasion, and
Obama's inartful malleable nuances and distractions, his inclination to act as a human weather vain, does anyone know how he really felt about Iraq?
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
"Obama's inartful malleable nuances and distractions, his inclination to act as a human weather vain,...
Nuanced and with the ability to express more than a simplified and polarized sound-byte, doesn't that, even if it gives him the horrible appearance of understanding the varied nature of the human political psyche, you know, a weather-VANE...isn't that a quality that has been woefully absent in the American political scene?
But to contrast Obama, a weather-vane, indicating strait-forward the direction the American public is blowing, sure beats whatever it is that is wrong with McCain...regardless the direction the American will is focused, McCain hasn't been able to stop spinning at a speed unparalleled in modern political history, adopting any position, even direct opposites within the same statement, as to where he believes said position is best fit to his audience.
Really, use a metaphor that doesn't bite back next time
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lfergie8121 month, 2 weeks ago
"Considering Public opinion at the time had 72% favoring the invasion"
That would contradict your implication of a human weather vane because he was in direct opposite of congressional flow by taking the opposing stand and considering that the same number now oppose the actions in Iraq I would think that he had the right opinion which shows leadership.
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JamesMarcus1 month, 2 weeks ago
Desk jockey? This is from the Wikipedia entry on Clark's military career:
Clark was then given command of A Company, 1st Battalion, 16th Infantry of the 1st Infantry Division in January 1970. In February, only one month into his command, he was shot four times by a Viet Cong soldier with an AK-47. The wounded Clark shouted orders to his men, who counterattacked and defeated the Viet Cong force. Clark had injuries to his right shoulder, right hand, right hip, and right leg, and was sent to Valley Forge Army Hospital in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania to recuperate. He was awarded the Silver Star for his actions during the encounter.
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DropkickaLib1 month, 2 weeks ago
His point was naive and unfounded. Is it better to have absolutely no military experience as Obama does? Clark completely discounted McCain's many years of public policy experience in the Senate. That is irrelevant also? Clark showed no political accumen and even Obama is distancing himself from him now.
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DropkickaLib1 month, 2 weeks ago
That was discounting his Senate experience. Not mentioning it was discounting it. Thanks for making my point...inadvertently.
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joeblowe1 month, 2 weeks ago
There has been a lot of chatter about this. Radio, TV, etc. Pundits howling that Gen. Clark is a pawn of the DNC etc. A lot of the commentary seems to be putting forth the proposition that Gen. Clark has somehow denigrated or belittled John's service. I don't find that to be the case at all. All Gen. Clark is saying is that being in the military - and in particular getting your as* shot out of the sky - is NOT necessarily good training to be the President. I agree. It DOES give some indication of John's character, but it doesn't translate directly to experience useful in the oval office. Being a Senator for 20 years or so ... THAT'S a different story. That's political experience. Whether or not he was any good at THAT is much more indicative of his suitability for the President's job. Far as I can tell, maybe not so much... He does now have SOME useful positions, but I don't personally trust him to stick with them. Still plan to write in Ron Paul.
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BB641 month, 2 weeks ago
Joe, the problem with this whole thing has been caused by the DNC. When Clinton ran against Bush 41, military didn't count. Then when Bush 43 ran against Gore, military was all that mattered. Then they ran Kerry and again it counted. Now they're running Obama who certainly never served in any military or reserve. Now it's not a big deal. I think it's time for the DNC to put up and shut up. Does military service matter or not? You can't have it both ways.
As to Ron Paul, don't even bother. I've met him, he's not worth the graphite.
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foksipayne1 month, 2 weeks ago
It's kind of nerve wracking, trying to figure out which is the lesser of two evils...
... And it all hangs on what one's moral content happens to be.
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
true, he doesn't belong to a white supremacist church, but he does roll over and align himself with those very "agents of intolerance" which both attacked him in the past as well as received his own condemnation. That doesn't stand well for his ability to stand firm in his resolutions, does it? You know, pandering in a most embarrassing way...
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bigurn1 month, 2 weeks ago
BB, you nailed it. Military service has been politicized far too often. It swings with the pendulum of how the military is viewed at that point in time.
Why is military service important at all? Because military service can (but may not) teach leadership. It can develop leadership ability. Anyone in a command position has some level of "executive authority"; do not kid yourself.
Anyone who has the authority to put our troops in harm's way should have an appreciation for the sacrifice they're asking. It ranges from simply being away from home, to death.
Gen. Clark has made his point, thin though it may be. I concede his thin point. He should now move on; there are much larger issues to discuss. Oil isn't getting cheaper.
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DropkickaLib1 month, 2 weeks ago
Clark was a Clinton hack and that's why he was appointed to a top command slot. You have to take his opinion with a grain of salt. Apparently, even Obama wasn't favorably impressed by his statement.
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BB641 month, 2 weeks ago
To whom are you referring? The only presidents I know who didn't serve in the military were Bill Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Warren Harding, Woodrow Wilson, William Taft, Grover Cleveland, Martin Van Buren, John Q. Adams and John Adams. Unless you're going to tell me serving in the reserve doesn't count?
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injest1 month, 2 weeks ago
Apparently service is irrelevant if your candidate has none.
Now can some Dem explain why McCain's service was a major plus when they wanted McCain to be their VP in 04.
What happened in Vietnam has not changed tween 2004 and 2008.
McCain: I'd 'entertain' Democratic VP slot
WASHINGTON (AP) Republican Sen. John McCain allowed a glimmer of hope Wednesday for Democrats fantasizing about a bipartisan dream team to defeat President Bush
McCain's Resistance Doesn't Stop Talk of Kerry Dream Ticket
wapo Saturday, June 12, 2004; Page A01
Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry has discussed the vice presidency with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on several occasions,
Undeterred by McCain Denials, Some See Him as Kerry's No. 2
By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and JODI WILGOREN
Published: May 15, 2004
Published: June 12, 2004
Kerry, McCain create buzz
Web-posted Apr 7, 2004
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injest1 month, 2 weeks ago
And as far as Swiftboating Kerry's service IN VIETNAM, who defended Kerry?
Kerry Gets Boost From Surprising Sources
Ex-Bush Aide Criticizes President, and GOP Lawmakers Come to Senator's Defense
Sen.Kerry's presidential campaign is getting an unexpected boost from an unlikely bunch: former Bush administration officials and congressional Republicans.
In the past week, GOP Sens.McCain (Ariz.) and Chuck Hagel (Neb.) have broken ranks and defended Kerry against President Bush's assertion that the Massachusetts senator is weak on national defense.
Kerry, who cruised through the nominating process with scant damage by historical measures, appeared rattled last week by Bush's attacks on national defense and terrorism -- until McCain stepped in and stepped on the Bush-Cheney message. McCain, who ran against Bush in the GOP primary four years ago, said on NBC's "Today" show that he does "not believe that [Kerry] is, quote, weak on national defense."
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
and then, spinning like a top, McCain goes and hires some of those very SwiftBoat Liars into his own staff...
actions speak louder than words, especially when those words change every time his mouth opens...and you tighty-righties want to condemn Obama for the opinions (taken in soundbyte snippets) of his minister, a man fighting still the last generations ethnic strifes while McCain cozies up to those very slanderers who make Clark's statement of dry truth look like an endorsement compared to the lies they told of the veteran John Kerry and his service.
pathetic hypocrites
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joeblowe1 month, 2 weeks ago
The DNC MIGHT be behind this, but you've got to ask yourself: What does it say about Gen. Clark if the DNC tells him to make such a statement .... and he DOES? Is he a spineless wienie that shouts, "how high?" when the DNC says, "jump?" I find that a little questionable. I suspect he has made an honest statement of his own opinion. And yes, indeed, it is kind of funny to follow the importance given to military service depending on who is running. Anything for a slight perceived advantage, I guess. No wonder politics sickens all sensible people.
What, specifically, did you find objectionable about Dr. Paul? Not enough of a rock star? Or something more substantial?
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joeblowe1 month, 2 weeks ago
I don't know where you get that idea. Dr. Paul - as he has carefully explained - is NOT an isolationist. That's ridiculous. What he is NOT is in favor of "empire building." He has often and emphatically stated in no uncertain terms that he wants to TRADE with other countries, NOT interfere in their internal affairs. How is that isolationism? How is trying to even the playing field - just a bit - between Americans that would like to make a living wage and uneducated peasants that will work for a few dollars a day by imposing a few careful tariffs ISOLATIONISM? How is getting us the hell OUT of bad deals like NAFTA isolationism? How about getting OUT of the corrupt and impotent United Nations? Isolationism or simply common sense? It is NOT isolationism to put the U.S. first. That's PATRIOTISM.
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obiefrommuskogee1 month, 2 weeks ago
Ron Paul is not an isolationist. He is non-interventionist. There is a difference. And he is spot on, esp. where the Middle East is concerned.
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joeblowe1 month, 2 weeks ago
That is HILARIOUS! Dr. Paul doesn't understand economics? Do you use that in your standup routine? You do know he has written books on the subject, right? And he DOES understand how the "fed" is screwing up the value of our currency (in violation of the Constitution, by the way) by fudging interest rates and printing money that has no value to back it up? Why do you suppose the dollar has weakened so much lately? Suppose it has anything to do with printing up billions of dollars to support a war that we don't have the cash to pay for? I rather suspect that is the case, and Dr. Paul knows it.
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ConquerorWyrm1 month, 2 weeks ago
"Wesley Clark is a spineless wienie and a lying weasel"
justify your comment or go away...this is cowardice supreme!
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lfergie8121 month, 2 weeks ago
ROFLMAO A retired General with distinguished military service is a spineless wienie. What an idiotic comment.
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baddad59Comment removed: User banned.
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injest1 month, 2 weeks ago
BB64
"I think it's time for the DNC to put up and shut up. Does military service matter or not? You can't have it both ways."
Considering the DNC lawyers in the 2000 election worked hard to destroy 2490 overseas military absentee ballots kinda sorts speaks volumes.
They did get 1500 destroyed, never counted before a judge stop them.
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