Bush Edits Out Jefferson's Anti-Religious Views »
Posted By Aidenag 3 months ago in NewsPresident Bush was at Monticello for a 4th of July celebration and he delivered an address. But it's quite telling that his speechwriters, in quoting Jefferson, cut out an anti-religious statement from a long and famous quote.
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tkyrchncs3 months ago
Well, a small thing to the editing done to the writings and actual lives of our Founders by those who insist our nation was founded on Christian faith, and that our Founders intended no separation between church and state.
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JohnQPublicComment removed: User banned.14 Replies
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DropkickaLib3 months ago
Anytime you quote Jefferson, you're likely to find passages where he contradicted himself. He was the orginal flip flopper. He espoused radical economic policies like eliminating inherited wealth but never followed through with them when he was a decision maker. Basically, he was the original flip flopper.
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libsRfunny3 months ago
"Well, a small thing to the editing done to the writings and actual lives of our Founders by those who insist our nation was founded on Christian faith, and that our Founders intended no separation between church and state."
Considering most quotes are obtained from books of quotes, it's entirely possible the passage was "edited out" by someone not affiliated with the President or his speech writers. It's also placing a bit too much emphasis on the word "monkish," which very well may have been non-religious in meaning as was the use of "blessing."
You do realize Obama is far more religious and than Bush and advocates expanding federal funding of religious organizations, don't you? Probably not.
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MikeWarner3 months ago
The article did not have the full speech, just the section mentioned. I really could not tell if it was an anti-religious, or anti-religion statement, or simply a statement against, shall we say, ignorant people. Would you insinuate by this one statement that Jefferson was not a Christian? Or is it simply that Bush's speech writers are in a conspiracy to rewrite history? These and a thousand other questions, in the end we will all know the answer, or, not.
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spkguy3 months ago
"We are afraid of the known and afraid of the unknown. That is our daily life and in that there is no hope, and therefore every form of philosophy, every form of theological concept, is merely an escape from the actual reality of what is. All outward forms of change brought about by wars, revolutions, reformations, laws and ideologies have failed completely to change the basic nature of man and therefore of society."
Thomas Jefferson
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Georgia503 months ago
Mike,
Bingo...right question to ask. TJ was quite religious, and once proposed an official tithe. He was also heavily influenced by what is called The Enlightenment, a period when modern man began to take leave of what I would call "entrenched religion," by which I mean the world view that the slightest of doctrinal differences was virtually a call to arms and ensuing slaughter.
America was the first, grandest, political departure from that world view, welcoming at once the protestant, catholic, and Jew. Personally I believe TJ referred not to the religious stature of America (of which he was a fastidious participant), but of the Europe we left behind.
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NoWayMan3 months ago
to selectively edit jefferson (mid-sentence even!) shows the great arrogance of this administration. bush has no sense of history, no realistic knowledge of his place in regards to that history, and no respect for his elders.
perhaps bush's speechwriter decided to take that part out because in that section jefferson was talking about people like bush.
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nostalgia3 months ago
It is very difficult to understand Jefferson's position on religion unless you read an extensive biography that includes more of what he wrote - more than one letter
When you just cherry pick quotes you get a very distorted view
For example, he also wrote or stated:
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317
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nostalgia3 months ago
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382
Jefferson's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in the
State of Virginia can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7842/rfindex.htm
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nostalgia3 months ago
You might find this interesting
'A Wall of Separation'
FBI Helps Restore Jefferson's Obliterated Draft
You can read the letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, which contains the phrase "a wall of separation between church and state". In the draft of the letter, Jefferson crossed out some words. The Library of Congress asked the FBI to try and determine what worods were scratched out in the draft. They were successful and you can read the entire original text
The Library of Congress site also explains what was happening politically when the letter was written
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html
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DarkWizard3 months ago
nostalgia,
Some very interesting reading. Of course, ingrained perceptions, and the inability (of some) to comprehend anything that pokes holes in their unreasoned logic, will still blind many to the intent of the edited content and the conditions under which it was written.
I applaud the points made by the article and the Library of Congress in enlightening us on the actual thinking behind the words Jefferson wrote, but many will be unaffected as they revel in their impenetrable bubble of ignorance and self-importance.
There are several groups of thought I find on Propeller and it became clear to me months ago that I belonged to none. This is one of the reasons I write so seldom. However, I do enjoy reading some of the articles and some of the comments and will "pop in" now and again.
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nostalgia3 months ago
DarkWizard
Too many remember a word or two about the various Founding Fathers and don't really understand the context
You'll see many mention "A Wall of Separation" and state Jefferson was a Deist. They never bother to look any further
The Library of Congress did a great job.
The more I read about Jefferson, the more fascinating I find him
Glad you enjoyed the article
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jordan113 months ago
I have studied Jefferson extensively. He was a very spiritual man, and wanted all to have the right to find whatever form of spirituality they chose. (His belief was in the 'god of nature,' not the Christian god.) He was furious when a Baptist minister was jailed in Virginia for daring to preach in public. Virginia was a theocracy, ruled under the auspices of the Church of England. He & Madison fought to make Virginia's governance secular, and they succeeded. That was the precursor to the Constitutional intent of separation of Church and state, which was agreed to @ the Constitutional Convention.
Jefferson understood the fallacies of man. He did not trust those who appointed themselves as all knowing on the subject of man's spirit, & believed that was for each man to figure out for himself, with the intelligence given him by the god of nature. It wasn't religion itself he scorned, It was those who abused it for power over others.
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foksipayne3 months ago
He was right to say that there should be a separation. I may be wrong, but I think that They are all One in the Same. Different people interpreted the rights and responsibilities of mankind in different ways/ languages, and that is how we all got it messed up to where each thinks every other is wrong. I don't think I could go FULLY along with any one belief.
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texangelwings3 months ago
Thanks Mark, for the invitation! Sad to say, President Bush is living in his own little world! This world is not the World according to Bush Jr.! America stands for the freedom of religion, the freedom to chose on our own, not for our government nor our representatives to make that choice for us!
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bill-smith3 months ago
I saw this in the comments following the article and thought it worthy of sharing with another audience:
George Bush really said, "But before leaving this world, he explained that the principles of the Declaration of Independence were universal"? George Bush, whose administration has constantly tried to explain that the rights granted under the Constitution are only for U.S. citizens? And only then if the government doesn't declare them terrorists?
Oh my.
Posted by: Chiropter
I found the statement amusing and thought provoking at once.
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antibrainwasher3 months ago
There is no god. No evidence what so ever. There is no afterlife, no evidence, not a scrap.
There is no absolute diety on our side. No invisible daddy who says our consitiution was chisled out of stone for all eternity, by him.
Jefferson was just a rich slave owner, protecting his intrest. The consitituion was written, primarily to protect the holdings of the people doing the writing.
Same as it ever was. Its always about special intrest. There is nothing absolute about the constitution. Its always about who is in power NOW, and what they want. And what they always want, is to stay in power.
The republican super rich ruling class use the consititution to wipe their arses. They are moving to Dubai, where they can have freedom to do what that want, unfettered by regulation or law or annoying people who don't want to die making them money.
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Georgia503 months ago
anti:
Well said. On your little speck of dirt on this planet, which is but a speck in the solar system, which is less than a speck in the galaxy, it being a speck in the universe, you have astutely observed that AROUND YOU there is no god.
Can there possibly be anyone on this earth more observant than an atheist? Nosirreee....no way.
Perhaps the only evidence you will have of God in this life is the revulsion that envelops you whenever mention is made of God, The Father. Were I of similar bent, I'd want to know where that sense of revulsion came from.
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foksipayne3 months ago
Anti, and thanks to Jefferson, you have your right to believe that way.
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Candida3 months ago
bill smith: 'George Bush really said, "But before leaving this world, he explained that the principles of the Declaration of Independence were universal"?'
I didn't read the comments below the article, but the exact same question popped into my head as I read the article.
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foksipayne3 months ago
Then, Mccain could, but probably wouldn't, tell you that Jesus did not only love Christians,(for one he was Jewish) but LOVED AND SHOWED COMPASSION FOR EVERYONE.
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slate3 months ago
This 'letter' was written by Jefferson true enough. But if you look closely, this letter is NOT in the text of the Constitution. The letter may have been Jefferson's opinion but that's all it is. No where in the Constitution does it talk about Separation of Church and State, this letter does, yet the left wants to have you believe that this letter is part of the Constitution.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First
All the wishing in the world can not change those facts.
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jordan113 months ago
In order to understand the intent of ambiguous items in the Constitution, SC Justices are charged with knowing the thoughts and intentions of the framers. It isn't a 'dick and jane' book, and couldn't have possibly anticipated every situation. You can't have freedom 'of' without freedom 'from.' The framers, and especially Jefferson, made that clear. Read the Virginia papers.
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slate3 months ago
You can't 'read' stuff into the legal document. i will not argue the point since their is no arguing, the words say what they say,, if the 'FOUNDERS' wanted a separation they would have enumerated that tenet in the document, not left it to Guess work from a letter.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof the intent is quite clear with no Ambiguity, and no, it's far from a Dick and jane book to be scribbled on.
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Ejgallagher3 months ago
I recently heard a mainstream pastor (Lutheran) comment on a non church recreational outing that Franklin, Jefferson and a number of the other founding fathers were deists who viewed organized religion as a tool for keeping the poorer and less educated under control. Apparently the same is still true today in all too many cases. For the record I used the July 4 Holiday by both flying the flag and picking cherries and no Washington never chopped down a cherry tree as told by Parson Weems. The first amendment was partially a response to the organized churches in our colonies which were tax supported (Either Anglican or Congregational). Jefferson also lacked the opportunity to serve on corporate boards for pay or give speeches at $400,000 a pop and died in bankruptcy which can be argued as consistent with both being religious or non religious as the principle that you can't take it with you would apply both ways.
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Mutainia3 months ago
If the Bible is true about having your name removed out of the Book of Life for subtracting from the Word of God, then Jefferson's screwing around with his Black slaves to "make the black race smarter", is the LEAST of his worries.
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abntv3 months ago
The separation of church and state can and will be argued for years to come...however...people seem to leave out or forget that in the middle of the american revolution the continental congress requested that all of the colonys set aside a day of prayer for the continental army.
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mackiemesser3 months ago
I'm no Bushite but in all fairness, I think that Bush wasn't even aware of the existence of what he quoted. His speech writers actually did the editing and Bush simply read what his writers wrote without knowing that a significant part was edited out of the quote. Blame his writers, not him. However, the whole affair is illustrative of and typifies his administration.
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